November 15, 2005
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What Is Morality? A Socrates Cafe Topic
One of the topics for Socrates Cafe this week is “What is morality?” On the surface, that seems pretty simple. Morality is doing the right thing, right? That’s where things get a bit slippery. What is the right thing?
Killing another human being is wrong, right? Oh! Except in self defense, of course. That is OK, isn’t it? And some people think that capital punishment is justified, at least in some circumstances. And then there is war. You can’t avoid killing during war, and war is always the other guy’s fault, anyway. When you really begin to think about it, there are exceptions to just about any moral principal you can name.
We measure morality with all kinds of yardsticks. A few weeks ago, I remember hearing one of the other instructors at the college where I teach saying that he had convinced one of his students who comes from a country where polygamy is practiced that polygamy is wrong. I was really a little horrified to hear that. In our culture, polygamy is wrong, or, at least it’s illegal. But is it universally wrong? The Mormon Church might have a differing opinion about whether or not it is actually morally wrong.
Since I have thrown in the topic of legality, if something is legal, does that make it morally right? If it is illegal, is it then morally wrong? All one has to do is listen to the heated discussion on issues like abortion and stem cell research to know that legality does not equate to morality in the eyes of many people. Those debates are also strong evidence that there is not universal agreement on what is and is not moral, even within our own culture.
When other cultures are included in the mix, the waters get even murkier. The Kamikaze pilots of World War II believed that it was an honor to die for the Emperor. That would seem to make their acts moral. Likewise, the suicide bombers of today believe that they are dying for a holy cause. Within the contexts of their belief systems or cultures, their actions are moral. Few people in our culture would accept those actions as moral, however.
There, I think, we find the real definition of morality. It is dependent on the ideals of the culture within which it exists and cannot be removed from that culture. It is living by a code of right and wrong that is defined by a culture, a family, or a society. It does not necessarily translate to other systems. As we know it, it does not exist as a separate entity.
Sometimes morality even creates the dilemma of having to go against the cultural mores in order to do what the individual sees as right. In The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Huck reaches a point where he struggles with the conflict between helping the slave Jim escape to freedom, which Huck feels is the right thing to do, and honoring the social mores of the time which said that slavery was acceptable and that a runaway slave was to be returned to his/her master for whatever punishment was deemed fit.
There is a point in the book where Huck’s conscience tells him that he needs to write to Jim’s owner, Miss Watson, and tell her where Jim is. Huck believes that it is the right thing to do because his culture tells him that it is. He even writes the letter. Then …“got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me all the time: in the day and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a-floating along, talking and singing and laughing. But somehow I couldn’t seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind. I’d see him standing my watch on top of his’n, ‘stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him again in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and suchlike times; and would always call me honey, and pet me, and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had smallpox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he’s got now …” And Huck tore up the letter. He had learned the worth of Jim, a black man. He no longer saw him as a slave, a possession, but as a worthy human being, a friend. He had to go against his culture and help Jim to be free, even though he thought that he might go to hell for it.
Everyone is confronted with situations that force a choice between the values of a culture and the personal sense of morality. Those choices are how morality develops; how concepts such as owning other human beings become unacceptable. I think that some caution is necessary, though. I don’t think that all mores can be ignored or that each person can write his/her own moral code. It can be very challenging to differentiate between ideas that really need to change or be left behind and the simple desire to do whatever we want whenever we want. So being moral can be a challenge.
Because I believe in God and practice a religion, I tend to believe that right and wrong do exist in and of themselves. I believe, however, that we are not able to grasp the full meaning of right and wrong and therefore of morality because we are hindered by the system in which we function. Since I believe in survival after death, I think that I will understand what morality really means in the next state of existence. In the meantime, I think that being moral means doing the best I can to live according to the mores of my culture, while understanding that even within that culture, there may not be complete agreement or understanding of what those mores should be. I also think that moral behavior carries with it the responsibility to be accountable for my own actions, to work to change outdated mores, and to respect the right of others to have differences in belief.
Comments (38)
Very good and thought provoking!
about your comment on my post: yes, I mean all life, even the spark of energy between two particles in my opinion is life. Although it is on a totally different level than human life. I beleive human life is on a higher level than other forms of life. That doesnt mean it is more important than other forms, just different. That being said, it is natural for energy to cycle between one state and another, us eating something for example, doing so is not immoral, as it is a natural part of this existance. Gluttony however is immoral as you are taking more than you need, upsetting the ballance. So again, it is a matter of ballance.
and about yours: I agree it is very much subjective to culture and such. And I also agree that we need to be careful and not let everyone do what they want because “their code says its ok”. Laws are basicly us saying together that this or that is immoral and unnaceptable. In this country majority rules to decide this, but that doesnt mean everyone in this country believes that way. Again; ballance.
~Mia
I think most “right and wrong” boils down to hurting other people. That is why things like murder, rape and stealing are usually considered wrong. What bothers me are issues like same sex marriage. It’s not hurting other people, so why do so many people consider it wrong?
I believe what is right varies from person to person because we’ve always been raised with different values and beliefs. This is an AWESOME blog…it really makes one think and I enjoyed it very much.
I liked how you included information about your favorite book in the question of morality. Very good!!
Wonderful information especially about how religion factors into your morality
Wonderful words, Nancy… very true. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Very interesting reading. Thank you.
I’m linking you up now, but I’ll be back to read. From the looks of the opening paragraph, I know it will be very interesting
I RYC’ed your questions on my own blog as it is typical of me… long!
I liked what you said, I have a question though of what you said up above. You said, “I think that being moral means doing the best I can to live according to the mores of my culture…” But like you said, what if the mores of your culture are ‘wrong?’ Granted if we were living in those times we may or may not necessarily perceive them as being wrong. Lets go back to the crusades, or the burning times, Salem, the inquisition, or when Christians were thrown to the lions. Would you then say that being moral is doing the best you can live according to the mores of your culture? What if something that goes against what you believe in becomes outwardly the norm as in ‘what is acceptable in society?’ Would you or I change then as well? Or would we make a stand? I wonder how any of us would feel during those and other particular times in our turbulent and at times volitile history. You said “So being moral can be a challenge.” You are so not kidding!!! I liked your thoughts in your essay. Good stuff Nance. Thanks for sharing!
Well done. I enjoyed reading this. I think Ill be ready to post my answer tomorrow.
“If you define morality as godly, does that mean that a person who does not believe in god cannot be moral?”
Yes, in answer to your question, atheists can be very moral. In fact, non-theists can put godly people to shame at times. Since I am a Christian, I beleive that being good is merely that – just good behavior. It has nothing to do with accepting God’s grace and mercy towards us. I hesitate to mention these things in this fourm – not because I am ashamed of my faith at all, but because just the word “Christian” throws up road blocks to communication, and I’m not a tele-evangelist, either.
You have a very good post here! Legality vs. Morality. Do they coincide? No, not really. One just has to be careful and make sure that, if you break a law because you were following your moral code, that you can accept the consequences. Morality does not exempt us from the law.
Great thinking here.
True, that different cultures may have a ‘set’ of proscribed morals, but who, or what sets them? Do we have our own individual ideas of morals? Could an immoral person still have morals? Really liked this Nancy.
great post
Hi. Thanks for dropping by my blog. RYC, I’m afraid my wife had to spend all the following day in bed to allow her joints to recover. But she reckons it was worth it!
Great discussion of a complex issue.
“In the meantime, I think that being moral means doing the best I can to live” word … that’s all we can do. We’re imperfect beings, and to expect perfection is a flaw. However, we should strive for it.
ryc: I think we have equality right now. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. We all have to follow the same laws of physics.
Should we all be the same? No … that’s impossible anyway.
I really enjoyed this, Nancy. It is very much the way I feel on the subject, but could not have put it down in words as well as you have. The moral vs. legal aspect especially. Also, the morals of various cultures. Morals of a culture are usually tied to the type of “religion” they have.
You should check out this site. It is about W.D. Ross’ duties and prima facie duties. I appealed to these a while back in another post for Socrates Cafe. It deals with ethical duties and what to do when duties clash.
You’ve raised some great points. You say you do not understand morality fully because of the system you live in and I empathize with that; however, what do you do when you a society that expects a certain commitment from you while your religious laws state that that very commitment is a breach of duty to God? If God does exist, then, in fact, God’s Law is superior to human law; however, we are human and can only understand God’s Law as humans are able. This means that we may very well misunderstand these Divine Decrees. Some very old laws call for very drastic punishements for wrongs that are committed everyday. I believe at one point in the Old Testament, the punishment for talking back to a parent was death. I don’t see the community I live in lining up with stones to send a mouthy kid to the next world. However, the majority of my community is Christian. If we can’t be 100% sure of God’s Law but fully sure of our human laws; what do we do?
Overall, this post makes me think a lot more about this topic. Thank you, -Colin
Excellent entry! I love the reminder about Huckleberry Finn!
BE blessed!
Steve
Well written, and thought provoking. Thanks for sharing on this subject.
I too appreciate that you used literature to illustrate one of your ideas. I think you have a reasoned and balanced approach to the topic outlined here…but I will add that I was taught by my father who is a pacifist that when our own conscience ..our own morals if you will are in serious conflict with the law or our culture we should refuse to do that which we feel is wrong,,,and accept the consequences. Fortunately I have not found myself in a situation where I had to choose,,,but if it ever came down to it I would ,with regret refuse to do something thatI felt was immoral..even if I had to go to jail as a result.
I just read your comment…and darn if you are not right,,you even gave an example….I think the thing you said about following the mores of your culture was what caused my mental lapse…my poor tired brain read morals….sorry as they are indeed two different things….Basically then we are pretty much in agreement…sorry about that. RYc I think you are right ,but I am doing ok
Your blogs are so well thought out! Sorry I haven’t been around much…the gopher pictures are adorable! They should frame the one with the cheerleaders, too cute! Hope you have a great weekend!
As I said to Mia, it’s great to sneak in late, because I can open up a bit more. But I do apologize for being This late
Some of your argument confused me a little. You begin by pointing out that morality is relative to culture and the people in that culture, but in the end you say that we must “[understand] that even within that culture, there may not be complete agreement or understanding of what those mores should be.” This is significant, is it not? It seems to suggest that even within a culture, room exists to change, to “advance.” How do we reconcile the two? If morality is relative to culture, this suggests that it’s perfect as it is, but yet it seems people in that culture disagree. Doesn’t this suggest that some within the culture are wrong? Not that I’m suggesting it’s right for us to impose our ideas forcefully on another culture; in most cases, it may be highly disruptive and harmful to both cultures. But what if this is necessary? For example, in the case of genocide, should we stand idly by while people are killed or should we forcefully impose our ideas of human rights on the offending group? At what point does the world become so small that a world culture sets the standards of morality? Are some “offenses” to our morality so grave as to compel us (and others) to stop them? If so, can we still say morality is relative to culture? Or can we acknowledge, at this point, that the world has become so small, that each of us must reach towards a higher moral ideal, one which acknowledges responsibility to people around the world?
Of course, none of my questions pertain to multiple wives; although, we could discuss the treatment of women as a moral issue. Multiple wives suggests women are unequal to man, that he is superior and worthy of having several partners, while the woman is not worthy of the same share of husbands. One man and one woman as a married couple suggests at least some equality of worthiness. If we recognize that people have equal intrinsic worth and to treat them otherwise is immoral, mustn’t we admit that polygamy is wrong?
Just wanted to add, after reading the comments, that it is a shame for anyone to feel that the word “Christian” throws up road blocks. Every person’s religion is valuable in this forum. No one should be expected to leave it at the door, like a pair of shoes or something
The important thing is not that we leave our religion or spirituality behind, but that we do not use it as an excuse not to reason.
RYC: Hope you have a ball at the concert, etc this weekend. I don’t have to understand to appreciate your joy! After all, isn’t that what friends do?
Great post. It emberasses me that you use literature to prove points and I use movies. I really hope that doesn’t say alot about my generation, but I fear it does.
I agree that the law of the land reflects the view of the nations morality as a whole. It’s very hard to draw the line as a whole to what is good/bad. Is it true then that in the ‘land of the free’ there will always be those that will never be completely free due to the fact they don’t have the same beliefs of their country as a whole.
I must go now, this topic has been very painful for me to try and understand completely. So much to think about, and so hard to define. Again, incredible post. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it.
Morals are different to each of us, but I think they are needed by us all.
If you aren’t a moral person, what are you? Immoral?
I think we all should have morals, but do they all have to match others?
You did a wonderful job on your post, Nance.
Peace and Love:)
no luck with the rock star for xmas but i think i can manage with the camera and duvet
meeting cheleD WAS GREAT AND YES SHE IS A VERY SWEET PERSON
ryc: LOL on ‘brisk’! Worse than that! I know a little of the Buell geneology, but not sure if she would be a relative, or not. My dad had some relations in CA, but originally, way back when, they were from the New England area. Hope you’ll have a fun weekend?! Aren’t you glad it’s warmer now?!
i enjoyed reading your essay very much and i agree with most of it. i’m a slow reader right now ’cause i find it hard to concentrate but i’m happy i read all the way through. i think it’d be fun to write an essay like yours. i hope you have a good weekend. i’ve been in hospital but i’m not going back ’til monday. take care, charlie
ps. are you looking forward to the new internet island topic? i am
Dear Nancy,
I’m reading from the Socrate’s Cafe this time, but I wanted to say how much I enjoyed the photos of Jake and the Gopher, and the cheerleaders. Even though the photo he’s going to treasure is the one with the cheerleaders, I’m sure, I like the second one. The look on his face is priceless.
I also wanted to say that your comment to my Morality post misread my intentions in talking about how America was founded on Christian principles. I am not a member of the “religious right” by any means, and I was making a point about capital punishment (killing a human) in a supposedly moral climate being “right” as long as the society is taught that it is right, not that America is a “religious” country. (I wouldn’t take “under God” out of the pledge though, even though it wasn’t there in the first place.) One of the things that makes this country great is the tolerance of many differing religious and philosophical viewpoints.
Now for the topic entry comment.
I notice you jump right in with the example of “killing.”
You write of the “real definition of morality. It is dependent on the ideals of the culture within which it exists and cannot be removed from that culture.” I totally agree. We are not “born” with a set of moral values. These are taught. It’s the old “nature/nurture” argument. I favor nurture.
You also write that you “tend to believe that right and wrong do exist in and of themselves” which I don’t believe. But I do believe that, as you say, we “will understand what morality really means in the next state of existence.” I’d paint this statement in little broader strokes. I believe that when we die, we attain the “final realization” that finally shows us the entire nature of existence, both on Earth, in “heaven” or in another life or lives, if we reincarnate at all.
I enjoyed your viewpoint, and it doesn’t differ a lot from my own.
Michael F. Nyiri, poet, philosopher, fool
ryc: It’s the first book of the “Sundered Series” by Michelle Sagara (now Michelle Sagara West in the rereleased book). I think the book is called “Into the Dark Lands” or some such. The funny thing is that between loosing the book and rediscovering it I have read a wonderful series by the same author but she was Michelle West for that series. Also funny is that this particular book is the first she ever wrote!
I think morality is acquired and a lot of it has to do with how we are raised. But there comes a time in our lives that our peers have an influence and then maturity where we can really make a statement as to our beliefs. My beliefs today are still evolving. The world today does not in any way resemble the world of my youth!
My moral base probably began more in the home situation even before I was introduced to society/culture. Next came the teaching of my Sunday School teachers.
I struggle so terribly now about the death penalty. When I see children raped and murdered I have so little room for redemption of such ilk. It just isn’t black and white no matter what side of the fence you happen to be on. Prisons over run with geriatric prisoners… drugs, mental retardation, mental illness…what is society to do?