May 31, 2006
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How should the illegal immigrant issue be handled? A Socrates Cafe Topic
How should the illegal immigrant situation be handled? Hmmm. That’s a tough question and one to which you can find many answers. It all depends on how you see the problem.
The first question that needs to be addressed is why so many illegal immigrants are here, anyway. Most of them come because they are desperately poor in their own countries and they need work so that their families can survive. That fits in nicely with the needs of employers in this country, because they have many jobs that most US citizens will not do for the salary that the companies can afford to pay. We have a large egg producing plant near us. They not only package eggs for sale in grocery stores, they also make egg products for fast food chains, restaurants and the US military. They are one of the major egg producers in the country. The work there is hard and dirty, especially out in the chicken barns. How would you like to scrape chicken manure for 8 or more hours per day? If your reaction is “Not on a bet!” you are not alone. Most of our local citizens feel that way. Most of the company’s employees are immigrants. It’s best not to think too deeply about how they got here. Let’s just say that they came because of all those jobs that were going unfilled and they are glad to have them.
Why don’t the illegal immigrants come legally? The answer is that they can’t. I heard a very interesting presentation on this issue by a law professor. It seems that the US does not grant work visas for unskilled labor. That policy creates quite a dilemma, because US employers have a worker shortage in unskilled jobs. There is a large body of unskilled workers from neighboring countries, but we cannot tap into it legally because those workers cannot enter the county legally. Our own immigration policies cause the illegal immigrant problem.
Another issue is the widespread belief that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. If they are working as migrant workers or in other jobs where they can be paid in cash, they don’t. In my area, though, they are working for well established companies and they receive paychecks just like everyone else. That means that they have federal, state, and social security taxes deducted from their checks just like everyone else. Because of their income brackets, they would be eligible for tax refunds, but they cannot file for them because they are illegal, so, in reality, many illegal immigrants pay more than their share of taxes. They also will never be eligible for social security even though they are paying into it.
Does our government need to get a handle on illegal immigration? I think so. What do they need to do? First, I think that they need to give amnesty to the people who are here and let them gain legal status. I think that a condition of that should be that they learn our language. Then, I think that our laws need to be revised so that unskilled workers can enter the country to satisfy the needs of employers. I cannot speak for any other area of the country, but in my area, the businesses that employ these workers cannot operate without them. They cannot get local citizens to do the jobs that the illegal immigrants do.
Comments (34)
You state the issue clearly and have a good solution. In my area we have a meat packing “factory.” When the company wanted to locate here, they promised to hire local labor. However, once they were up and running, they began using immigrant labor, some illegal labor, because there wasn’t enough local labor available, especially at the wages they were paying. So now our town has an influx of Mexican laborers, who spend their money in our town, and pay taxes on everything they buy, as well, as you said, having taxes withheld and paying into Social Security. There has been a small increase in crime, mostly drug or alcohol related, but most of the people who have come here to work in that plant are quiet and hardworking.
Another contributor to the Cafe said that the issue should not be labeled as a problem, and I agree. I have no answers, especially none as thought out as you have presented, but there must be better answers than the one our president and the rest of the government has come up with.
Peace and blessings to everyone legal or “illegal.”
Is it okay to break the law if there is a good reason? What is a good reason for breaking the law? Does the answer change if this question is applied to other situations besides immigration?
How do illegal immigrants work “legal” jobs and pay taxes? Are their employers violating federal and state laws?
You make an excellent point, anniemomz. While there are a few immigrants who engage in illegal activity, just like there are a few locals who engage in illegal activity, it is a myth that illegal immigrants add substantially to the crime problem. In fact, most of them are very law abiding. They cannot break the law because contact with the law can get them sent home.
Illegal workers work at “legal” jobs because they buy papers belonging to someone who is legal. They have green cards and social security cards, but the cards do not belong to them, so they have to be used very carefully. An illegal immigrant does not know the background of the person whose papers he/she uses. It costs thousands of dollars to get these papers.
Employers are committing a crime if they knowingly hire illegals. They would tell you that they do not knowingly do that, although most of them do know that some, maybe most, of their immigrant employees are illegal. They need workers, though, or they cannot operate their businesses.
I have a question. Is it better for an employer to run a business in the US and hire whatever American workers they can, supplementing with immigrant workers to make up the slack, or would it be better to outsource the entire business and give all jobs to people from another country?
It’s nice to see you finally have the time to post yourself! I’m sure the stress of so many responsibilities makes this rarity a pleasure for you as well.
First, just a contentious question: What is “our” language? I didn’t think the U.S. had a national language, and a prediction has been made that in 20 to 40 years the most popular language will be Spanish, not English.
Second, what do you think the outcome of sending all illegal immigrants to their home countries would be? Specifically applied to the egg company near you, do you think that with lack of labor support the prices will have to go up, the quality and quantity of product will decrease, and people in the presumable recession would then be willing to work jobs that currently that have distaste for? Or is it more likely what you suggested at the end of your post, that the company will feel forced to send it’s factories outside of the country, thus eliminating jobs in this country? Or is there a more likely alternative scenario yet?
A very nice post. I enjoyed reading it. You address the situation in or near your home in Minnesota. That is understandable. But what of the situation in the South West, where the number of illegal aliens is so much greater than elsewhere? They have a different situation to deal with. Their school overflow with children whose parents do not support the system. The hospital emergency rooms overflow too. And welfare systems designed to provide support for local populations are suddenly forced to provide support for hundres of thousands more than they can handle without breaking at the seams. How can these issues be addressed?
I have a question, that is more for the immigrants than anyone here, but I can’t help but thinking it as I read these posts…
Why would anyone spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on illegal papers and risk getting caught with them, when they could just do things according to the law (I realize that all do not have the funds to do things according to the law but I’m talking about the ones who do have funds for illegal papers)??? It doesn’t make sense to me…
Thanks for your kind words, Eddie. It is very nice for me to be able to post a Socrates Cafe blog. I have, however, neglected things that need to be done to do it, and I will pay for that eventually.
I am aware that the US does not have a national language. I am one of those who think we should. If I went to another country to live, I would expect to have to learn the language. Since I am a citizen of this country, I do not think that I should have to learn another language besides my own to function here, but it is rapidly approaching the point where that might become necessary.
I honestly do not know what would happen in our community if the illegal immigrants were sent back. I suspect that the egg plant would have to close and relocate. Where it would go, I do not know. The locals who work there would lose their jobs. The businesses in town would suffer because the illegals are a big segment of our population, and they spend money in those businesses. 1/4 of the teachers in our school system would lose their jobs because the student population in the school is about 1/4 Hispanic. Landlords would have a lot of empty apartments. The civic organizations in town would suffer because the egg plant contributes to all of their projects. The impact on our local economy would be huge. Why do people focus on the ways in which they think that the illegal immigrants drain the economy instead of the ways in which they contribute to it?
Reluctantsinger, I can only speak for my area. I know that the HIspanic population is much larger in the Southwest. Are you sure that they are all illegal, though? I think many Hispanic families have lived in that area for generations. Are you sure that your schools would be better off without the HIspanic kids? In most states, schools receive funding on a per pupil formula. If the Hispanic population in your schools went down, the funding for the schools would also go down. Just as it would happen in our community, teachers would lose their jobs. Some of the HIspanic parents in our school system do not support the schools, just as you say is the case in your area. Some of the local parents do not support the school either, and they are a bigger problem because they communicate so much better.
Are you sure that illegal people in your community collect welfare? They cannot in our community. Also, don’t the working immigrants pay taxes that support the public assistance system? Don’t the immigrants, legal or illegal, shop in your stores and contribute to your economy in many ways? Do you have businesses that could not run without them? If those businesses closed, would US citizesns lose jobs?
It’s a very complicated situation with no quick, easy answers.
For Building_A_Mystery. If you read my post, you would have read that these workers cannot enter the country legally because US immigration law does not grant visas to unskilled workers. They would enter legally if they could because it would be much cheaper and much safer. Many people die trying to enter this country every year. It would also be safer for them while they are here if they were legal. The immigration laws cause the problem of illegal entry. Businesses need the workers. The illegals would not come if there were not jobs for them. Employers would not hire illegals if they could get US citizens to work for what they can pay and if they could get US citizens to do the work that they have. It is much safer for an employer to have a legal staff. It also makes businesses much more stable because illegal people tend to pack up and leave in the middle of the night if they need to do that.
It is not a matter of not having the money to do things according to the law. It is much cheaper to do things according to the law if that is possible. In this situation, it is not possible.
Why do you think the 9-11 terrorists were all here legally? They had education and skills, so they could get visas. Why do people make such a strong connection between illegal immigrants and terrorism? Illegal immigrants do not have the skills it takes to be terrorists. Many of them do not have any education at all.
The USA probably needs more unskilled workers than skilled. If all the workers went home what would happen to the USA ecomony? I do think that if you are going to live in another country then you should become part of that country .
I think the problem I have with the immigration issue is that the US Gov really hasn’t taken a position. Other countries require extensive documention and purpose for being in their country. Here… we allow people to slip in and out undetected each and every day. This ambiguity is found throughout. Although we do not have an official language… students are not encouraged to speak any other language except English. Other countries require a second language in school. So, we do not provide our natural born citizens with the tools to be bilingual…except we allow our immigrants to NOT speak english. How many times have you walked into a fast food restaurant, only to find the person behind the counter COULDN’T UNDERSTAND YOU…nor you them.
Yes, this is the ‘land of the free and home of the brave’… but we must have rules. I encourage all to read this http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=14632
Other countries have strict rules on immigration… yet, we don’t. yes, we were founded on the notion of freedom…but at what cost are we keeping things as open as we do.
I have to say… as a white caucasion natural born American Citizen… daily, I feel like MY rights as a US Citizen are being stripped away in the name of Racism or Tolerance…and thankfully, I’m a woman… so I do have SOME kind of Ace in the hole. Too bad for you white natural born american dudes… you’re just out of luck these days. It’s sad. Just because you were born male, and white, and american… these days… you really have no rights… because we have to be politically correct, tolerant and PROVE we aren’t being racist.
What have we become.
You raise many valid points to support this argument, and I liked that you raised the question;”Why do people make such a strong connection between illegal immigrants and terrorism? Illegal immigrants do not have the skills it takes to be terrorists.” It IS often assumed that cutting down on illegal immigrants will reduce terrorism, when in reality, terrorists who infiltrate into the American melting pot society because they are highly intelligent, educated and skilled. This was made clear after 9-11 when the majority of Americans got a fast and painful education on American foreign policy. It seems the terrorists, and most other foreigners knew, and know, a lot more about the US than the US-ians did!?
While I am not sure I can condone illegal immigration, I have a hard time saying it should be stopped and everyone should be sent home when everyday I see banners advertising the “US Green Card Lottery” in several languages, Arabic being a frequent language for the ad,which is on xanga pages all the time Obviously we need workers, America also needs to boost its economy and that means more people buying more things. In addition, its more complicated than other nations’ illegal immigration issues because of the sheer size of America, how do you protect it, put a great big wall around the entire country? I have seen other countries trying that approach and it doesn’t seem to be working for them.
I guess the question that comes up for me is WHY should the US irradiate illegal immigration when it’s serving their socio-economic purposes? Yes, it is illegal, but then when was the last time the US cared much for the legality of things? Let’s recall that the US was founded illegally, by immigrants, so it seems a bit like the pot calling the kettle black out kick out the “immigrants.” I am not Native American, so that means a lot of us caucasians would be homeless under the legality argument. I understant history has changed things since the days of Buffalo Bill, but its just a prejudiced way to look at the American dream, when these immigrants come here do the work none of us would ever do. In essence that means we let skilled workers into the country, who take our jobs for less pay, even though some may end up being terrorists, but we won’t let in the unskilled workers who don’t threathen to take our desired jobs, who don’t have the skills or education to dangerous to the nation. In addition, aren’t there more important things to be worrying about that are illegal-some of which were created by the US-illegally? I just don’t see how stopping illegal immigrants is really going to stop terrorism, create more jobs, improve the economy, or help improve the US’ foriegn relations or international reputation in anyway.
I have a somewhat different take on the immigrant “problem” both legal and illegal.
For most of my teaching career in South Florida I saw how that part of the country dealt with massive immigration – over ten percent of the entire population of Cuba.
Most of these refugees were, contrary to popular belief, not the rich and privileged, though most of that group, including Castro’s mother and sister did come. Rather, most cuban refugees were ordinary poor Cuban farmers who have continued to float across that very dangerous 90 miles for the past 40+ years. These immigrants, who are given “special status” and Green Cards, have transformed South Florida, indeed the whole state, and very much for the better. They have given the area a fascinating Hispanic-American cultural mix, revitalized the economy, and made Miami the gateway to the southern part of the Western Hemisphere. And I haven’t even mentioned the Haitians.
There has been a down side. The cultural mix has not always been a happy one and the rapid growth of the area has led to massive urban development, mostly uncontrolled and left South florida as a megalopolis that’s not always pleasant to live in, but there is no doubt of the positive impact on Florida’s economy and Society.
Remember, Hurricane Andrew in the ’90s hit an urban area of several million, not the half-million of New Orleans – left many more people homeless- and last year Florida was hit by not one but FIVE major storms. I have not, however seen the social and political fallout Katrina left. Part of that is due to Latin-American resilience and hard work.
To come to my point; much of the current illegal immigrant debate, to my mind is political smokescreen designed to focus massive awareness of a non-problem we have dealt with very successfully for almost all of American History. Anything to take our minds off Iraq.
Does our immigration policy need massive overhaul? Of course it does. but compassion and good sense should be the guideposts not ethic hatred and isolationism.
How about some suggestions about what we, as individuals, can do.
Have a nice day
Wow. This is a great post. Living in western PA, we don’t see a whole lot of the illegal immigration issue (certainly not compared to the southwest or to your town.) I feel so much more informed now. Thinking a little more about the terrorism connection, it seems like the vast majority not only don’t have the resources to be terrorists, but are relying on the US system for their own well-being. They would have no reason to become terrorists unless their treatment once they were here gave them one, I’d think.
I do not agree that caucasian males have no rights in this society. I have never met a straight white male who lost a job to some other minority and couldn’t find another job elsewhere. In my experience, said job rarely goes to someone who is not equally qualified as the person who lost out. Why is it that white Americans (like myself, although I have to say I don’t share the fear) are afraid of losing their rights to a potential new hispanic majority? Is this fear legitimate? If power is still being divided according to race to that extent, I think we have a big problem.
Interesting post on an interesting topic – very timely. However, I have nothing of significance to add, other than my opinion – which I do not even myself consider a well-informed one. I live in south Florida and embrace the culture – it is definately a different world here.
BE blessed!
Steve
I wonder how they can get a job with a paycheck when they do not have a Social Security Card. How do they do that? I remember getting one at age thirteen so I could go to work. Hmmm.
I live in North Central Florida and I disagree with the two folks from South Florida. Yes, there are many Cubans in south Florida. Some are unskilled, some are not. But they seem to have taken over that part of the state. Many of the people who have been moving into our area came up here from southern Florida because of the massive influx of Cubans. They feel they were being forced to learn Spanish in order to do business in the area where some of them were born and raised. There was a saying a few years ago: “Would the last American leaving Miami please bring the flag?”
Illegal immigration is a problem in my area. Yes, they do the jobs that many people around here may not do, but many of them cause problems. God help you if you go to the grocery store by yourself in the evening if a group of them happen to be there. I was accosted in the parking lot by one of them who was obviously drunk. Luckily, one of his friends came over and pulled him away but my story is not the exception. Many in this area work long hours and they unwind by drinking too much and getting too happy with others. You must also be careful about speaking to them as many of them will think you are “coming on to them” and then you’ll really be in trouble!
On the other hand, they are also taken advantage of by some and that ticks me off no end! We have a used car dealer in town that advertises that they speak Spanish there. Apparently, talk to them in Spanish and charge outrageous interest rates on a vehicle that no other dealership would touch with a 10 foot pole!
While I think that many of the illegals should be allowed to stay, learn our langauge (English) to make communication more clear and become citizens, I think those conditions should be heavily enforced. Like someone said earlier, if I were to move to a foreign country, I would be expected to learn the language and I would do so. If they want the ability to get tax refunds, possibly health insurance through their employer, let them become a legal part of our community. If you want to be an American citizen, you should be able to communicate with other American citizens.
As for the Native American thing, don’t get me started! My ex-best friend is Native and taught me so much! I hate to think about my ancestors being so wrong!
Anyway, good topic that makes one think. I like the different viewpoints from different people from different parts of the country! Now, if we could just get our leaders to engage in these types of discussions, maybe they’d learn a whole lot more than they think they know!
)
Ok some migrant workers get paid under the table and dont pay taxes and people dont like it but what about the citizens who get paid under the table?
Great post, I totally agree with you on the ‘jobs no american would want’ thing. I find myself being snobish about jobs, I’m low income, and I dont like my job, I think I should be able to get better than this. Its something that is crammed into us as we grow up, we are expected to acheive ‘the american dream’ and impove ourselves till we can at least afford the house with the white picket fence. So even though I’m paid over minimum wage, I feel like I should be doing better. And even though I want a better job because my hours were cut and such, I turn my nose up at some work that I feel is ‘beneith’ me. I am low income, yet I have this computer and the leasure time to use it. I really have NO idea what it is to be truely poor, even though I always get all my taxes back at tax time. I just dont think most Americans understand this, we just have no clue at all what these people go through, and how they live.
~Mia
Nancy,
I used to be a hard-liner on this issue, but I’ve softened to an extent. So, do you think that lower-income Americans are spoiled and won’t take lower-paying jobs, or jobs that entail lots of manual labor?
That’s what I think…sometimes they would rather work at a desk, or be on welfare if not able to get an inside job.
What do you think?
John
So many great responses!
John, I think there are probably 2 issues. I do think that many American people think that certain kinds of work are beneath them. I know that I have been guilty of that. I also think that what Americans know as poverty is very different than what people from other countries know as poverty. The wages that are paid for many unskilled jobs are not enough to get Americans out of poverty by our standards, so American people won’t take them. By the standards of other countries, what we define as poverty is wealth. People coming from other countries will take those low-paying jobs.
American children do not know the value of manual labor. Too many want to sit around and get paid for smoking dope and making babies. My son runs a local McDonalds and can’t get good American born workers – Black or White, Male or Female. He had to bring over and hire Europeans who make less than $200 a month as professionals back home. Here they make 4-5 times that much flipping burgers. America would shut down if we had to relie on our own young people to do the entry level jobs. They all seem to want what the pay 20-year veterans are making, but they want it on day one. My only wish is that the immigrants would learn English. After that, they would be welcome with open arms in my book.
Nance: This is what I’m sendijng. I just got to you on the list.
Don’t forget to participate
Hi,
I’m one of the Board Members of the Socrates Cafe Xanga Blogring.
We are trying to determine who’s still interested in participating.
If you haven’t participated in the past few weeks, please access:
http://xanga.com/simone_de_beauvoir
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We hope you will take part in some of the really interesting discussions.
Nancy i see you had very long comment about this topic . As always you state the probem in a well balabec way .
It is the same in Europe . I believe this is a poblem of consumerism society . Is the evolution of our ” modern ” society always good . Richs become richer and poors poorer . Inequalities are too important and Money has become a king more than ever .
I hope William Edgar is doing well !
The picture of you two with him is touching . Really .
Love
Michel
This is an issue with good arguments on both sides. I saw today that the governor of Texas wants to put surveillance cameras connect to the Internet along the border so people all over the world can alert officials when illegals cross. How 1984 can you get? Congrats on the new grandbaby!!!! Now that it is summer, I can actually spend some time with Xanga.
Hi Nance…just posted “Time” for Socrate’s Cafe….sorry it’s so late. Hope it is okay! Will read your’s later today. Lisa/.
How are you?????? I miss seeing your blog!
I see I beat ThreeHeadedSarahs_II here. The Sarah-birds are back.
Time’s short. I have looked at this excellent blog and the equally excellent discussion that follows, and don’t have much to offer by way of comment. This is as difficult an issue as I can imagine. Solutions are practically impossible, and every opinion I think I might form has serious flaws.
Hello to you. Thank you for visiting our new Xanga page. As you may well know, we are illegal immigrants here too. We do not have a green card or any other color card for that matter. The only reason this is a problem is because humans have decided to make it one. Why does this planet need all the borders and divisions among its people? Different languages, different faiths, different sexual orientations… etc. What does any of that matter? We say, do away with borders and nations and states. If too many strangers come here then we can simply move there. People go where the grass is greenest. That is only natural. Lets concentrate on making the grass green everywhere. Become a citizen of the world first and your particular region second. Share the wealth and the woes. Be your brother’s keeper. Stop being so clannish and selfish. Share your cats with hungry aliens.
>>>Why don’t the illegal immigrants come legally? The answer is that they can’t. I heard a very interesting presentation on this issue by a law professor. It seems that the US does not grant work visas for unskilled labor.<<<< Wow, I didn’t know that! Thanks….I loved your essay.
Hi, Nancy…I just started a new site and I’m re-subbing to you.
How are you?
John G.
Hi. I am visiting via Daylily02′s Xanga and it is certainly refreshing to see someone discussing these issues intelligently. I haven’t read all of the comments, but I would like to add one of my own.
I am an American, married to a Swede and living in his native country with our three daughters. Last year we began to make plans to live in the States for a while, but those plans have to be put on a shelf indefinitely — because of the U.S. Immigration laws.
We thought about moving years ago, but the law stated that I would have to obtain a sponsor for my family or move to the States and find a job, save up $10,000 (so the U.S. govt will be assured we won’t live off welfare) and wait for an additional 9 months to 1 year before they can live with me. I am not about to leave my husband and children 4500 miles away for a year just to move back home.
After 9-11, the laws were even stiffer.
Last year, the laws were relaxed enough to allow immigrant spouses to accompany native spouses moving back to the States, giving them a year (providing they have a job) to have permission to legally work and live in the U.S.A. But we still can’t go. Why? Because the States charges $700 just for the medical examinations and other filing charges alone. He is not allowed to be examined by anyone else, everything has to be through the American embassy and it is a nightmare.
Since he is allowed to visit the States for 90 days at a time without a visa, we have considered the idea of living in the States part of the year, coming back here and moving back there, etc. within the visitation guidelines. It’s actually no more expensive than going through with the legal paperwork (!)
My husband will be filming a car race in Mexico in November. A close friend, who knows about the problems we’ve had trying to move back together, jokingly suggested that maybe Hub should slip over the border when they wrap up the filming. I’m beginning to wonder if it’s the only way we’ll be able to do it…